Proposal: Accelerating Arbitrum - leveraging Camelot as an ecosystem hub to support native builders

To those who contextualize the amount of requested ARB tokens by taking as a reference the total amount the Foundation is holding, saying that is a very small percentage, that’s not a solid argument at all since the fact of having the tokens doesn’t mean they are meant to be ALL sold or given away.

What if the community at some point decide to burn a big stack of them? That’s a very possible scenario.

The rating of an investment shouldn’t be relative to the size of a portfolio. I mean buying a useless JPG of a rock for $1M is not a good expense whether you have 2M or 200M.

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Fair enough, however as a DEX the swaps/pairs are the main features-- hypothetically if you were to be called a univ2 fork, you are just as much as solidly fork since half the swap functionality is Andre’s curve. On top of boosting, (WIP: voting, bribing), the excalibur model back on fantom was relatively similar in nature as well. I do not believe being called a solidly fork is disrespectful by any means, as it is quite possibly one of the hardest codebases to properly pull off. Regardless, did not mean any disrespectful or ill-will in the designation, but moreso clarification around the similarities in the model.

All in all I support Camelot getting a grant, however the method of which it should be received should be allocated differently imho. Once bribing/voting with xGRAIL is released, ARB could be distributed as matching incentives for protocols. I don’t believe anyone is against a grant being given out, but the only constructive feedback that has merit I’ve heard is surrounding the method of distribution and potentially the amount. Cheers.

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Ye I’d like to be clear that I’m also in support of Camelot getting a grant(s). From what I understand from teams and partners I respect is that they hustle and are positive builders and contributors here for the long haul.

Like others investing heavily in Arbitrum’s success, I’m watching to see the community and foundation reaction and will voice my opinion along the way when I believe it can be productive.

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Hey everyone, Jacob from Perennial (derivatives protocol on Arbitrum) here. I also used to do some governance research at Polychain.

Really cool proposal from the Camelot team. It’s very thorough and has kickstarted some really important discussions around how the Arbitrum DAO should think about allocating its treasury to grow the ecosystem.

Analyzing this from the lens of $ARB holders & governance delegates, here are some thoughts:

1 —
The idea that Arbitrum would use its token to offer a few million $ per month in liquidity incentives is quite reasonable and should probably be done, and Camelot has a strong argument for being a recipient of some cut of those incentives.

However, this is a tough proposal to evaluate in isolation, given the obvious precedent this would set & the broader ecosystem implications. If $12mn (or $10mn) in incentives goes to Camelot, there will inevitably be dozens of follow up props from other potentially-deserving protocols asking for similar amounts, and as others have called out, the incentives to Camelot in isolation may create an unequal playing field.

2 —
A core problem here is a lack of Arbitrum DAO process. This proposal is a binary choice, when it really shouldn’t be. Ideally, we’d see many proposals batched. Changing from one to many alters the evaluation criteria notably:

One proposal: Is this net positive or net negative for the ecosystem? (all or nothing)

Many proposals batched: Is this the best, relative to alternatives, for the ecosystem? (choose one, choose many, or choose none)

Many of the impacts/goals outlined in Camelot’s proposal are awesome and would be positive for the ecosystem… the struggle is the all or nothing nature of the question. While this proposal may be net positive — without exploration of alternatives, it’s tough to tell if this is an efficient use of capital for the DAO. Are there other protocols/teams well positioned to accomplish similar things? Are there other methods of achieving the same goals?

Instead of evaluating proposals on an individual basis, this process should batch many proposals together. In order to ensure a fair & sound distribution, Arbitrum should structure a formal liquidity incentive program where decisions as to which protocols receive incentives (and how much) are established all at once & in accordance with uniform criteria, as was the case with the airdrop.

Polygon, Avalanche, and Celo (and few others) have all gone this route in the past, to the tune of $100mn+ programs. I’m sure there are some good learnings to takeaway from the successes & failures of past attempts at incentivizing ecosystem activity.

Nonetheless, Camelot didn’t have any other choice but to do an individual proposal because no such program/group currently exists to allocate incentives. Their bias toward action is commendable.

Some smaller grant, or perhaps even just the $2mn in $ARB received from the airdrop, is likely a good starting point for a small-scale liquidity program, buying the Arbitrum DAO some time to set up a formal working group.

3 —
A related point, I think it’s pretty clear that the DAO forum is a bad venue for analyzing & debating these types of proposals. Allocating capital effectively is tough work and requires some judgment calls to be made. Attempting to come to community alignment (and then hold projects accountable after the fact) with this many cooks in the kitchen will never work — this process would be far more efficient if delegated to a few leaders within the community.

4 —
Assuming the Arbitrum DAO is going to begin using its treasury to grow the ecosystem, the next question that arises: What types of activity should the DAO be incentivizing? This will inform which protocol/programs tokens should be allocated to.

At a high level, Arbitrum should be intentionally allocating capital to support the long-term growth of the ecosystem, not short-lived activity spikes. Here’s some things this should probably include:

Developer incentives — Novel on-chain products/protocol/experiments have been the core driver of Arbitrum growth. Going directly to the source of the innovation — the researchers & developers themselves — is perhaps the most effective (though least scalable) method of growing Arbitrum long-term. This includes things like hackathons, dev grants, an ecosystem investment fund, bounties, etc.

Direct incentives for experiments — To make Arbitrum the home for innovation, Arbitrum can incentivize activity in exciting, but early stage, areas (think: what’s going to be big in a couple years? Start seeding activity in those protocols today). This might include things like: NFTfi, RWAs, exotic derivatives, etc.

Direct incentives aimed at overcome bootstrapping problems — For high conviction subcategories of crypto with active user demand that are merely hindered by liquidity constraints or user onboarding friction (or something else solvable with the right resources), direct incentives could be quite valuable as a short-term boost to get the protocol to a sustainable state. This is particularly important when the hindrance is holding back the broader ecosystems — Ex. devs can’t build the products users are demanding because there isn’t enough liquidity or value to capture in the building blocks. This might include incentivizing long-tail options, delta-neutral vaults, rate/yield swaps, etc.

Incentives that reduce user/developer friction — Arbitrum can use incentives to bolster invaluable ecosystem resources (things many protocols rely on). One recent example that’s close to home: deep (and cheap) liquidity for USDC → USDC.e and/or tooling to support the transition. Others might include deep liquidity for other stables and/or core spot/perp trading pairs.

Broad liquidity incentives — A few of the sections above include narrow/targeted liquidity incentives, while this section contemplates less targeted incentives. While broad liquidity incentives have shown to generate less bang for your buck, there may still some good outcomes. Generally this is akin to large-scale marketing or paid user-acquisition scheme. Many more users & devs will be exposed to Arbitrum, some of which will stick around longer term.

5 —
On the discussion of who (which protocols) should receive incentives, a balancing act exists between these two: 1) Broad distribution enhances competition, and keeps the ecosystem open & accessible, and 2) The highest quality teams/protocol/communities will deliver significantly outsized ROI for Arbitrum ecosystem (following a power law distribution). So an uneven distribution that is careful to not over allocate to top protocols is likely optimal. Again, not terribly far off from the logic of the Arbitrum airdrop.

6 —
Within this lens, here’s how I’d review Camelot’s token plans:

Ecosystem builders — This primary involves providing liquidity for Arbitrum ecosystem governance tokens & other long-tail pairs. Cool to see that many of these pairs are almost exclusively on Camelot. There is some value in incentivizing this as part of a plan to broadly jumpstart DeFi activity on Arbitrum, but I’d put this on the lower end of Arbitrum ecosystem priorities. My sense is that DEX liquidity is usually not what’s holding Arbitrum ecosystem projects back and/or predominantly contributes to short-term growth.

The updated proposal strongly emphasizes pools with ARB as a base asset. I’d defer to L1/L2 token economics experts on this one, but I wonder if this will really drive that much value back to ARB? Or will this just create more friction for users? Seems like most ETH-L2 activity has made ETH/USDC part of the base pair, and I’m not sure that this is necessarily a problem.

Integration Partners — This section has some high potential, though it looks like this was trimmed down in the revised version of the proposal. Using incentives to drive growth of the developer ecosystem building on top of Camelot feels quite valuable. It’s a win-win for the ecosystem & Camelot, as the infrastructure built & incentivized here (liquidity managers on V3) has application across multiple protocols & is targeted toward supporting a specific user set. Short-term incentives here may help drive longer-term fundamental usage of protocols building on top of DEXs.

Core Pairs — In principle, I think there is some value here. However, it appears that Uniswap (and Trader Joe) have significantly more liquidity & trading volume relative to Camelot on these pairs, so while I think this is a strong approach/goal, it’s an open question for voters of how much priority should be placed on Camelot vs. other spot DEXs.

LSDs — This is a compelling strategy to help migrate LSD liquidity from ETH to Arbitrum with the help of liquidity incentives. This seems mutually beneficial for Camelot and the broader Arbitrum ecosystem. And there may be other additional methods of facilitating this liquidity migration that this section could be coupled with.

General thought: despite some questions I have around whether certain parts of this proposal are the most effective use of $ARB incentives, I’m generally pro experimentation with DAO incentives, and think this proposal outlines objectives well and outlines some accountability measures, which is great to see.

All in all, quite excited to continue the discussions Camelot has started with this proposal. Properly structured ecosystem incentives have the potential to significantly enhance Arbitrum’s growth — benefiting users, builders/projects, and the Arbitrum DAO, alike.

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Gud proposal - very important for Arbitrum to focus on native protocols, and there’s nothing more native than a home-grown dex. It will help differentiate the community aspect of Arbitrum as opposed to being a copy-paste L2/alt-L1.

Camelot is a strong team of builders and although started as a UniV2 fork, they have been consistently delivering technical innovations that often go unnoticed, specifically:

  • Directional fees
  • Permissionless Nitro pools where partner protocols can offer targeted incentives for locked (or unlocked) liquidity in their own tokens without governance overhead
  • Custom concentrated liquidity implementation with unique vault structures (coming soon)

Besides this - from a community building / bd standpoint, Camelot’s approach here is differentiated - with a partnership first approach with protocols that encourages cross-pollination - e.g. look at the round table. This is why unshETH (coming from ETH and BNB Chain) chose Camelot as the dex partner to quickly integrate with all the Arbitrum native protocols.

While the proposed amount might come off as aggressive - ask yourself why not take an aggressive bet on the #1 native dex? The goal is to accelerate the ecosystem and that sometimes takes bold moves and sticking with the native community. Take the bet and see what happens!

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@jacobpphillips raised some amazing points that needs to be considered.
Rather than making bets and seeing what happens.
First use the airdropped ARB, showcase it’s efficiency helping the ecosystem and then ask for more.

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Camelot literally is one of the worst DEX user experience wise, giving them more tokens would just be lowering the bar.
and they still have good chunk of ARB they got in initial airdrop, shouldn’t that be used 1st and they can present data to get more Arb token from DAO ?

Disclaimer: PancakeSwap is strongly considering deploying to Arbitrum, bringing not just our suite of DEx products, but also our launchpad, which has raised funds for projects such as Wombat Exchange, and Magpie (i.e. Penpie), which are currently deployed on Arbitrum.

  1. I echo the framework proposed by @jacobpphillips – there needs to be a bit more granularity and colour on what would be the anticipated outcomes of this proposal, particularly the binary (and dare I say dichotomous) approach right now.

  2. I’ll just state that our potential deployment would be an additional player in the dex/launchpad landscape, that we do believe that our increasingly cross-chain userbase of 100k+ DAU would grow the Arbitrum ecosystem. This is all the shilling I’ll do.

  3. My point above is to demonstrate that it is still fairly early days for Arbitrum (and for that matter, most L2s), and there are many ways we can grow the pie together. How we can do this is up for debate, and experimentation should be encouraged (like this proposal!).

  4. However, like most experiments, I think that it is best to: (i) start small; (ii) propose realistic desired outcomes; (iii) the steps to get there; and (iv) data needed to support and evaluate (ii) and (iii).

  5. We also applaud Camelot’s efforts to kickstart conversations on how DAOs can encourage ecosystem growth, and emphasise the main purpose of this message: we’re keen to provide data, share best practices, or be a left curve sounding board for the Camelot team.

Happy to continue the conversation here, on twitter (PancakeIcy), or on TG (@wagmi can provide my handle lol).

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I think this is an incredibly well thought out post. Thank you.

Without a grants framework, this is how these proposals will be posted. They will have a narrow scope of the protocol which posts them.

I’m not pushing for or against this proposal. If the DAO votes for it, great. If not, then we learned something.

A better solution would include some discovery to find what the principles the DAO would like to use to construct a liquidity incentive program. This is a component of what we would like to discover in AIP - 3 [Non-Constitutional] Fund the Arbitrum Grants Framework Proposal Milestone 1

Does the DAO have a preference for incentivizing USAGE or incentivizing BUILDING

While there are arguments against incentivizing usage in some replies, there is also an argument that Polygon, Avalanche, and Celo are doing programs for $100 million plus. Does this provide a long term strategic advantage? Does it only make sense to do this once there is a clear strategy for sustaining engagement afterwards? How does this enable the builders in the ecosystem by providing liquidity?

Does the DAO have or want a principle to ensure fair competition

A few arguments in this thread revolve around the proposal having the potential to disincentive competition. This could centralize a component of the ecosystem. However, it also stands to potentially reward a committed partner. There are competitive options - so do we want to reward the ones with a primary focus on Arbitrum? Is that more important than rewarding all DEX equally or proportionally?

What might a holistic grants plan look like?

A holistic grants program may acknowledge that there is a need for some liquidity incentive, but balances it against the other ecosystem needs against a yearly spending limit. To ensure sustainability, we would study the downward price pressure of liquidity incentive emissions and account for that in setting the yearly spending limit.

How can we help separate signal from noise without creating bias

We can create a better proposal process. One that assesses if the DAO desires an outcome separately from deciding the who and how of implementation.

If you are beginning to feel the number of proposal racking up, and noticing how difficult it is to diserne signal from noise, then please read Grants Funding Framework Discussion - How To Excel at Being a DAO

How the Plurality Labs proposal can help

Camelot will likely post this to snapshot soon. The grants framework from Plurality Labs is not competitive and shouldn’t be considered something to wait for. At this point, it is down in the voting on Snapshot. I hope this observation illustrates how a framework could compliment a proposal such as this by providing data and sensemaking which the delegates need to properly weigh the pros and cons.

We would create many of the components mentioned above to unbundle the proposal process. Delegates would then have a framework to value proposals which applied directly to the DAO outside our program. They could save time while making better decisions.

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You’re a competitor that hasn’t even deployed on Arbitrum :joy:

Sorry but feels a bit hard to believe you are doing anything in the best interest of Arbitrum when you’ve not done anything on the chain.

it might be better to save your thoughts for after you’ve contributed something to Arbitrum?

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I think the Camelot team should now put this to a vote

It is clear this discussion forum is becoming less productive each day - I am supporting of incentive grant but was looking forward to healthy debate about it and how it could be improved

Instead of nice discussion this has turned into other teams trying to shill themselves and trolls

Is there an alternative platform we can use in the future. ?

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This is a healthy debate and several points have been raised that needs to be addressed instead of front running with a proposal without waiting for a proper grants program.
If this gets put upto vote, protocols who are to benefit from this should abstain from vote or else this will just be a cartel internally voting to fill their own pockets.

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TLDR: Camelot ticks all the boxes to receive the grant and take Arbitrum to the next level

I am in favour of this proposal as Camelot have been an amazing net contributor to Arbitrum by connecting market participants, providing liquidity for nano caps and fundraising high quaility projects.
Because of that Camelot is in a greatposition as an ecosystem hub to boost the Arbitrum ecosystem.

Aside from that Camelot is a succeful case, they have shown they have a sustainable business model being able to grow in TVL and mc.

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Agreed.

I think it’s a very powerful sign when you look at the metrics for Arbitrum apps - Camelot is one of the most used native apps, only 2nd to GMX. Any 1 number by itself is a weak signal, but when you take into account active users, TVL and volume (of native tokens), partners etc, then you can build a pretty complete picture of its role in the ecosystem.

i find myself wondering if camelot does not get a grant, then who does… ?? is 4bn arb really going to be allocated through work-shopped “framework” programmes - do these people even use arb apps? are they part of the communities? a lot of theory… not enough of getting hands dirty and trying…

how well has that actually gone on other chains? there are many people in DAOs that love to waste time and money, and would rather spend all day on a forum than actually doing something.

incentives (in general, not just for DEX liquidity mining) are the most practical and direct way to fuel growth. not doing this now would be a huge mistake for arbitrum. considering the aggressive position other ecosystems are taking with generously supporting grants, incentives, dev funds etc…

now is the time to act.

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I think proposals for liquidity mining grants to individual projects should be rejected by the Arbitrum DAO on principle.

For transparency, I’m building a project soon to launch on Arbitrum. We had previously deployed on another alt-L1 chain that funded 3 projects to provide “baseline” liquidity. The token dumped >97% since, the allocation failed to bring any meaningful activity, and this approach created deep resentment among all other projects who weren’t graced with free money. Over time, nearly every dev left.

We want to build on Arbitrum because outside of ETH mainnet it is the only truly neutral chain, and not having liquidity mining grants is a big part of this neutrality. Arbitrum is beating Optimism for several reasons, and neutrality is a huge contributor.

I think better uses for the Arbitrum DAO treasury would be to fund security, such as audit-focused grants or a shared bug bounty for all projects. These are all capital intensive operations that are significant hurdles to projects, and benefit ARB holders and users over time. They also do not skew business results, as projects can better devote their attention to making better products.

Chain incentives should mostly be in the dustbin of crypto history along with Su Zhu and SBF

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Another airdrop according to wallet activity in the beginning of the next year with announce 3 months before could do more for ecosystem growth. Camelot for sure will receive big chunk of it
Also it would not raise questions about fair/unfair distribution

This just feels like a trojan horse attempt to establish Camelot as the primary dex on Arbitrum (in anticipation of the bullrun). Many of these influencers hitting the forum with dramatic appeals hold advisory roles with Camelot and therefore seek to benefit.

The benefits to Arbitrum ecosystem seems particularly mild in comparison to the consequences of intervening in a quite unsettled dex market. It’s not the time to pull favor, nor can we approach Arbitrum with the same OP/VELO playbook.

The primary focus shouldn’t of these grants shouldn’t be to pull some mercantile liquidity providers on chain, so much as continued support for new developers to enable Arbitrum’s chokehold on innovation to remain.

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Word on the street is that the arbitrum foundation will be having its own incentive program in the near future. Camelot likely thinks they won’t be able to cashout as hard than with a direct dao proposal so that explains the desire to rush through governance before this program gets officially announced.

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Something does feel off here, that’s hard to articulate. It smells desperate imo, there’s no need to invite toxic flow to an already thriving ecosystem.

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Helping fund audits its an amazing idea honestly, particularly given the long lineage of exploits that are unnerving to even the most hard edge defi users. An aura of safety around Arbitrum protocols would really excel it’s place in the mindshare; just for the love of god - blacklist Certik.

I’m sure a deal could even be cut for discounted rates for arbitrum protocols using the audit grant programme.

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