Ramses: Request for Transparency Regarding Alleged Fee Adjustments and Arbitrage Practices

Ramses: Request for Transparency Regarding Alleged Fee Adjustments and Arbitrage Practices

Entropy would like to formally request an explanation from Ramses regarding the following concerns that have been raised:

It has been alleged that Ramses is lowering fees to zero, enabling the team to capitalize on arbitrage opportunities within its own pools, before raising the fees back to normal levels for other traders. This practice results in LPs receiving no fees during this toxic flow trading, which could be deemed unethical.

Moreover, Arbitrum DAO is currently incentivizing LPs on Ramses with ARB tokens, which raises concerns about the fairness of this strategy and whether it’s an activity that violates the incentive program’s mandate. While one could argue that establishing MEV through arbitrage is part of the game, the practice of zeroing fees to extract these benefits could be deemed a misuse of incentives and a violation of the program.

The same strategy appears to be occurring on other networks such as Scroll and Linea, but our focus here is on Arbitrum, where it seems the team has extracted about $90K thus far.

Given these concerns, we would appreciate Ramses’ response and clarification on this matter, how are these fee adjustments managed and are there any considerations in place to ensure that LPs are treated fairly and no potential violations of the incentive program are occurring?

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tagging @Dog for visibility

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We should set a hard deadline for when Ramses must provide this information. Resulting consequences could affect the remainder of this program and/or any future programs.

I’d suggest 8/30 with the DAO taking action the following week.

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Noteworthy - unlike almost any other DEX you may be familiar with:

  • LPs on Ramses primarily earn from emissions, not fees (minor %).
  • Ramses has the highest revenue to holders of any DEX on Arbitrum and is #3 overall
  • All activity is transparent, public, verifiable on-chain, no private mempool

Response to request for information:

This would have been more appropriately handled with a quick request for information to a team member instead of a public post on the forum with inflammatory language (unethical, violations, etc.) and misinformation (there is no scenario where $90K in fees has been extracted from LPs and the accusation reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of how arbitrage works - specifically, how arbitrageurs (bots) only arbitrage when it’s profitable to do so. (LVR loss-versus-rebalancing)). We’ve already connected with the Entropy leaders and they agreed that a simple message as a heads up or question before posting publicly would have been more productive. Appreciated. The positive is that Ramses has made significant strides in improving capital efficiency and maximizing value to LPs and this offers an opportunity for us to share some of that progress (albeit premature) and crack open a topic and challenge in DeFi for LPs that is worth discussing.

The core of the challenge, reducing the impact of value lost to LPs through LVR and MEV, is significant and one that many DEXs across DeFi are attacking. In this case, Ramses has developed a dynamic fee algorithm to improve DEX efficiency and initiated research to mitigate LVR and MEV. Although early, the methodology, experimentation, and results to date are written-up in the attached (linked) document. Anyone interested in diving further into the details beyond this doc, please don’t hesitate to reach out to us on tg or discord. Additional ideas and oppty for improvement or iterations are welcome.


We’ve also included a detailed breakdown to specifically address this inquiry and clarify how Ramses initial MEV tests protect liquidity providers, improve DEX efficiency, and in no way violate ARB dao purpose, intent or guidelines for incentives. We welcome any/all challenges and on-chain evidence of even a single ARB incentive that hasn’t gone not only directly to LPs as intended, but also directly to LPs in blue-chip pools critical to the foundation and growth of Arbitrum.

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Beautifully written and documented by the ramses team, the beauty of Defi is that indeed, everything is verifiable onchain. The dex game is competitive, each dex on arbitrum is fighting head to head trying to take over the market share, exactly how a free market should operate. Over the past few months LPers and TVL have been increasing steadily over at ramses because users choose to get the most out of their assets. The ramses team have used their grant exactly how their terms were agreed upon in the voting process, and have been making valuable partnerships with blue chip projects on arbitrum simply because teams choose to team up with them. I’ve been following this team for almost two years now and I think theyre truly what makes defi worthwhile, hardworking autists who optimize their protocol until theyre satisifed (they’ll never be satisified :slight_smile: )

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Hello,
I’m trying to understand how dynamic fee changes work. It seems like it’s a problem raised in open post.
Here’s a transaction: Arbitrum One Transaction Hash (Txhash) Details | Arbitrum One. As I understand it, this is arbitrage? Could you explain the fee changes using this transaction as an example?

in the logs I see some fee changes

Could you please clarify the mechanism?

Thank you

To begin with, we want to make clear that our intention wasn’t to accuse the team of wrongdoing, but instead, to ensure understanding of the situation in a public setting, as we are committed to providing value to the whole ecosystem rather than operating behind closed doors. Having said that, we understand that this approach might be counterproductive and are committed to formulating standards for similar situations that may arise in the future to ensure that Arbitrum’s builder-focused ethos isn’t adversely affected and no unwanted negative externalities can arise. With this in mind, below, we’ve further elaborated on why the inquiry was raised and what is still unclear from our point of view.

Recap

The Ramses team has informed us that they were experimenting with a bot to capture MEV opportunities that would later be returned to token lockers and LPs. From the perspective of Ramses contributors, the extraction was a relatively small amount of money, and the negative externalities associated with their testing were inconsequential to LPs and token lockers. From our perspective, the ARB incentives were enough to offset the negative externalities of the extraction so that LPs/token lockers would not notice, and since there were no publicly announced plans to return this extracted value back to token holders, it looked like malicious behavior. Some of the funds extracted have seemingly been bridged through Across and deposited into Aave on Scroll, and although a small amount of money, adds ambiguity to whether or not the plan was always to return this extracted value to token lockers / LPs. In addition, the bot being operated is, to our knowledge, the only bot with the privilege to interact with these pools at 0 fees. To us, this nullifies the argument that the value would have been extracted regardless of the Ramses team operating the bot, as any other actor would be forced to pay the pool’s fees thus compensating token lockers and LPs through normal means.

Details

The main address in question is a Bot: 0x6e639af00851684e85913197a7d36bf3aa6b5a9a which we will refer to as “Wallet 1”.

Wallet 1 has privileged access to the Ramses DEX and is able to swap with effectively 0 fees. Though there are thousands of transactions to use as an example, a simple example can be found at hash 0x32308b2485fd22458492cd6b92c704fc1f1ae2b87476973adec17be246a93c80. When checking the logs of this transaction it is clear that the wallet is able to transact with Ramses pools in the privileged manner described. Wallet 1’s swap event flow within a txn lowers fees near zero for the Ramses pool, executes a swap, and then raises the fee back to the expected rate.

This practice allows Wallet 1 to capture “MEV” at 0 cost and effectively lift out liquidity from LPs without paying them to do so. Without the privileged access, an arbitrage capturing swap still creates fees to the LPs/Locked token holders—traditional arbitrage does not require fees set to zero. Even at small price changes that otherwise would not have allowed for MEV in a system with fees can be extracted with the zero-fee swaps. Additionally, transacting at near 0 fees allows the team to wash volume, which could impact the effectiveness of resulting data from the STIP Bridge program.

Ramses Response:

Ramses’ response starts with excerpts from a white paper describing a dynamic fee mechanism, which provide great context on their research into MEV. In addition to the whitepaper provided by Ramses, their response can be summarized into three key points:

  1. LPs on Ramses do not capture most fees, token lockers do.
  2. The team’s plan is to eventually return the extracted value to token lockers and LPs.
  3. The same arbitrage would be captured anyway by other bots.

Responding to the response

We appreciate Ramses’ quick response to the inquiry. That said, there are still a few aspects that are unclear to us. The mechanism deployed by Ramses is extracting value from LPs, while in many pools, the LPs’ main source of profits comes from ARB incentives. In other words, some of the value extraction from Ramses’ users could be seen as being supported by active ARB incentives.

Our main question relates to the plan to distribute this extracted value back to token lockers/LPs. If the redistribution was occurring in practice, we wouldn’t have brought up this inquiry.

It seems a portion of the extracted value so far has already been bridged off of Arbitrum via Across in hash: 0xcf50e1a05fa396737fba2ac7a4b6e3a3d3af03d954a1e51e2df1f5e12fedfcc9. The extracted value then appears to be deposited into Aave on Scroll 0x747c69b14ec96e2b1d0118ff5c67902078185001. Additionally, we haven’t been able to find any supporting documentation, announcements, or other publicly available resources covering this structure. It’s the lack of notice surrounding the program and the fact that funds haven’t been redistributed to users that we’d appreciate clarification on.

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Our overall assessment is that if the team commits to returning past value extracted and any future value extracted to LPs/token lockers, that they never had malicious intentions. They have long contributed to arbitrum, and we think they deserve the benefit of the doubt here. Do we think there could have been more transparency with this MEV experimentation? Yes we do. And Ramses team agrees. At this point, we’re looking forward to moving on from this in productive collaboration to build Arbitrum.

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Great post @Entropy
I think 0xF6F6BA62629a7E1C36a5C14Fd5943aF6AfAF2C02 had the same behavior like Wallet 1

Same MEV capturing with zero fees although it was stopped in the beginning of the July

Thanks for the timely reply. My comment was only directed at creating a timing expectation, not a further accusation. There are a few issues to address here:

Issue 1 - Was there wrongdoing?

Ramses made a quick response and it seems legit. However, I am not the guy to go to if you have questions on MEV or LVR. We can allow others with expertise, such as Entropy, to chime in here.

Issue 2 - Every grant program should have someone responsible for identifying and communicating about (potential) fraud.

Entropy received the accusation message and decided it would be best to default to full transparency. This seems reasonable.

Ramses would have liked a dm prior to posting because a message like this could severely hurt their business - even if just an accusation.

There is no policy for how we handle accusations of fraud. There isn’t an official community flagging function or dropbox with a standard process. Entropy received this information because there was a vaccuum where a responsible party should be. They defaulted to the option most well-meaning DAO contributors would - they opted to post for transparency.

We should have a consistent policy on how these accusations are approached. Just because you’re a delegate and he could dm doesn’t mean that it is the fair and equal approach (it likely is tho).

I’ve offered to facilitate a workshop to design a policy for community detection, reporting, and transparency with the parties involved. So far we have not set a time - update hopefully coming soon. Comment if you would like to join.

In the future, the policy should be what we argue about - NOT the decisions of well meaning actors.

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How is capturing arbitrage for no cost a dynamic fee exactly…?

Can you also explain the purpose of sharing a research paper that is in large not of your own but positioning it as it were so … (you suggest this is your research as per the below image)

image

This paper is largely the work of the following authors (link to actual paper in full): x.com

While I am not an expert in Ramses, I am familiar with MEV.

From addressing the above evidence and claims, there is a significant lack of detail from Ramses to clarify what is being presented. In my opinion, this is very far from what MEV is, and is a potentially malicious use of the term to try and confuse people not familiar with the subject.

To put it simply:

  1. Ramses are “stealing” fees that would otherwise go to LPs.
  2. The justification for “stealing” these fees is that it’s some form of MEV.
  3. In none of the documents above is there any evidence that this “MEV” is then being given back to the LPs.
  4. Value is being extracted at the expense of LPs and not being returned - that is clearly not mev.

Anyone with a moderate understanding of MEV can quickly tell you there is no “MEV” being performed here, and there is NO excuse for taking the LP fees when nothing is being given back to the LP. Unless Ramses can prove that the fees they are taking go back to the LP, then this is theft. Reducing or cutting the fee in the way that Ramses are doing is also not a requirement to capture any MEV… this makes no sense to anyone that has operated MEV operations.

Additional red flags are the “MEV research” that is just a generic document not written by the Ramses team.

There is objectively no evidence of MEV here. The onchain data only suggests that Ramses are taking fees and executing trades to capture value at the expense of LPs, and that this value is NOT passed back to LPs.

I am willing to change my opinion on receipt of further evidence, but Ramses official response is insufficient and disappointing, it gives the impression that they are hoping no one in the DAO actually understands what MEV is…

The discussion isn’t about MEV but rather MEV-protection through LVR.

Your assumption about Ramses “stealing” fees shows that you don’t understand how LVR works and I would recommend you read the above document to further research. It’s quite elaborate and explains it perfectly. Other dexes provide this same function on various chains.

Brand new account coming on to a hotly debated thread to FUD isn’t a good look.

Do you have any evidence the research paper isn’t related to Ramses?
Who are you representing to have to create a new account with the only intention to FUD?

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My point was made simply and clearly, and yet you have provided no evidence to refute it. Calling it MEV or LVR detracts from the actual point here.

I await an official response from the team to address the objective actions that can be seen.

  1. Ramses team are deliberately cutting fees to execute trades. This “takes” the fee that would otherwise go to the LP.
  2. The fee (or value) taken by Ramses team is not being given back to the LP
  3. Any form of MEV or LVR does not necessitate the fee being cut, so that is not an explanation for why it is being done and there is still 0 evidence of any real MEV or LVR happening here despite many claims of it existing
  4. Even in the case of MEV or LVR there is nothing here that justifies why the fee taken is not given back to the LP

The objective evidence above shows that Ramses are adjusting the fees to 0 to execute a trade and take the fee from the LP, and this is NOT being given back to the LP. There is no excuse for this behaviour.

Until evidence can be shown to refute this, it is not misappropriate to call what is happening in this scenario theft.

You keep saying over and over that the LP should get the fees or Ramses is stealing fees for LPs but that’s not even where the majority of fees go in Ramses’ platform.

If you’re unaware, Ramses has vote gauges, veRAM holders vote on pools and the vast majority of the fees (80%) goes to the voters, LPs get less than 20%. LPs earn emissions in the form of RAM as their main compensation. So if you’re going to keep saying its theft, at least refer to the correct party who may be losing out, the veRAM voters. Perhaps Ramses using the collected funds to vote bribe gauges would be the most appropriate use as it returns it to the rightful recipients, the veRAM holders.

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Please read my post as i have asked questions that have yet to be answered directly

Asking questions is not fudding

image

Maybe because…they work together? There is a lot of baseless fud or complete lack of research on the part of participants in this thread. Its actually embarrassing.

Maybe its time for the people of Arbitrum to actually familiarize themselves with the Ramses platform, team, and project before jumping at any opportunity to discredit these actual builders.

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Ramses team were very quick to respond at first, and yet now they still have no answer to the onchain data?

The onchain data shows that Ramses are extracting value from users, and that this value has been bridged off of Arbitrum, therefore concluding that in no way has this extraction been distributed back to holders.

The onchain data shows that this is theft, and that it is going unanswered.

Are we all aware of the very clear signal this sends to bad actors looking to mis-use funds from the DAO, when there is no process for accountability? @raam @cliffton.eth @stonecoldpat @AlexLumley @krst @Sinkas @KlausBrave @dk3 @Frisson

I cannot see any avenue for reporting and/or a process in place that would handle these issues of genuine malicious activity. This is highly concerning considering the amount of funds the DAO is handing out. Ramses is a clear-cut case with onchain evidence that has been brought to light, if a simple case like this can not be handled then there will likely be many more cases that no one is even aware of.

STIP & LTIPP end this week, and we will be reviewing all parties equally and if the need arises we can consider a public collection of complaints for further evaluation (we have had circumstances in previous programs that warranted this).

From reading the thread my initial thoughts are:

  • I cannot jump to any conclusions, but during our reflection period I can dive into transactions
  • There is always nuance specific to the protocol mechanisms that make it difficult to compare like for like. So we will need to review things holistically (aka if fees are assumed vs disclosed, if there is anything deceptive in documentation or UI, etc) as I haven’t seen any actions attributed to malintent in the thread, could very well be semantics.
  • As a builder myself I face many challenges similar to this where a user is not aware of these differences (whether by lack of clarification/caution flags on developer side or by users “apeing in” without proper due diligence) and this friction can be difficult to manage esp when losses are involved so I am empathetic to both sides.
  • Accounts with elevated access do innately concern me
  • I do acknowledge that traditionally the tradeoff is LVR vs Fees, and this elevated access wallet seems to collect the benefits and bypass the drawbacks, but again more research is needed to determine if this is actually an action in bad faith or a nuance to how ramses handles volatility.
  • Experimentation with STIP incentives I personally encourage (in a safe and transparent way ofc) and if this experimentation was properly disclosed and this was the outcome (to be validated) then I also don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill tbh
  • Last we will review timelines to make sure everything lines up with the response and disclosures, as well dive in to determine intentions.
  • Don’t give Entropy a hard time, although I would have personally used different language (they came in hot for sure), they are just doing a genuine act of citizens due diligence, which I am sure was being escalated on their side by external parties to their group, and they, rightfully so, are making sure the concerns of users are being properly platformed & addressed.

If any other Users/LPs/Experts/Team members want to include any other relevant information or investigation (supportive or otherwise), this is probably the right thread to include it and we can ensure it is examined during the STIP/LTIP review process.

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